Posted by Flower Pagan (188.8.131.52) on February 06, 2003 at 12:00:08:
In Reply to: Re: Interview of a famous Four on Thursday posted by coo (184.108.40.206) on February 06, 2003 at 00:40:11:
> I don't know what you guys are talking about?
> Do you have children? Have you watched it?
FP: I don't have children but I have loved some as if they were close to being my own, since their mother was not available to them emotionally and sometimes, physically. I have seen clippings of Micheal Jackson holding the baby over the balcony, and I also saw it up close where they were looking to see how tight that he was holding the baby. I believe it was a little eccentric and impulsive, but I don't know the full story.
> I have a child with intellectual disabilities-not that that makes me any more entitled to comment...I am also a fourÖand when I publicly hold my infant child over a balcony for whatever childish excitable, prideful reason, I would expect to be called on it!
FP: Well, you and Micheal have different perceptions, I suppose. I think as a human being and as a mother, you have every right to comment.
> I have sympathy for him But I also have sympathy and understanding for my incredibly abusive mother(4) and father(8) and every other unhealthy person who abused me in my childhood but that doesn't mean I should put aside my logic and insight and embrace fellow fours without questioning their state of mind in regards to children. I donít support my friendís weaknesses and I would hope they donít support mine!
FP: Wow! Both of your parents are from the reactionary triad! I hope you did not have any type 9 and 5 siblings in that house, which would be too overwhelming for them. Having one mother who is an 8 can be overwhelming and she cusses too much! I can relate to being abused as a child in childhood by various people, and
FP: No, this does not mean to put aside your logic and insight,I agree. I do believe Fours needs understanding as well be encouraged to question their own behaviors and perceptions on the world around them and see does it match. I know a Four that used to get upset and inflict pain on self because the individual believed someone was angry for one's flaws or behavior, when actually, nobody was angry with this person. I challenged the person's perceptions of that was projected onto others, and we learned the truth that those are just one's feelings, not nobody elses.
> He is extremely unstable and he needs help not pity and not blind encouragement....as do we all!
FP: I see humans differently. In my perceptions on people, I believe they need lots of encouragement and positive honest feedback, like Dr. Phil does. I have not see the interview yet, but I hope to see it tonight. If he is extremely unstable, he needs a professional who cares enough to tell him the truth that will set him free and give him compassion, understanding and encouragement at the same time. Perhaps, he needs to see Dr. Phil. I don't pity a Four, but I do encourage them to grow, which is not an easy thing for me because I get overwhelmed with too much emotions and demands placed on me, especially when they get angry with me because they misunderstand my emotional detachement to mean that I don't care when I care very much. They know that now. They learned to appreciate my style since I do get positive results.
> You guys obviously, think I' being too harsh but I've seen the negative effects of bad parenting (like we all have), and I don't think it should be supported. Iím certainly glad I got my shit together...I wouldn't have trusted myself or inflicted myself on my daughter when I was medicated and delusional and depressed and sad and entranced!!! The whole cycle would be perpetuated. God forbid! Give me wisdom and insight and honesty AND true compassion any day.
FP: I understand why you feel the way that you do. I understand you probably can relate to the child that Micheal was holding, which explains why this would upset you so much and with a valid good reason! I sure hope he has learned NOT to repeat his parents mistake!!! I am glad you have learned that for the sake of your child(ren)'s future happiness.
> Like I said, his heart is in the right place. And Iím not really saying his kids should be taken away from him! I do think he gets treated differently because he is rich and famous and, it seems, because he is a 4!.
FP: Yes, he does get treated differently. If it was a private citizen, it would have been forgotten or resolved by now, but he have cameras invading his private space and having that footage shown over and over again and won't let it rest. He probably haven't had a moment's peace since that was aired on TV. Sometimes, they do get away with things in the legal since though they are put through a lot in the process, which is not fair to the general population. I would not be surprised this story was in many newspapers, magazines and news shows. And will probably show up over and over again in the future years. That is a punishment of another form.
> I was an actress and have many well known friends and admit, since moving into film directing, have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about the cult of celebrity-esp: actors!!!!!
FP: I am grateful that I was just sad, periodically, crying that my church doesn't allow us to go into show business because of the sabbath. I came to realized that it would have been a lot worst for me if I have made it into show business because they would have stepped all over me, which became clear to me after seeing Mariah Carey's interview! I saw myself in her. I admit, I would not mind getting to know Mariah Carey, Julia Roberts and Drew Barrymore. Do you know them? They look like nice people, though I never seen Drew Barrymore in an interview yet.
FP: I know that cult of celebrity is a high pressuring situation to be in and clashing egos who feels entitled. I have met celebrities, and one of them was isolating himself in a room reading a book, instead of integrating with the people enjoying himself. There was no groupie fans there. It must be a lonely world to be in on the personal level. I tried to entertain him by writing upside down on the board. Ha, ha, ha. I don't get excited over celebrities because they look and talk like human beings, except they don't have as much freedom as I do to walk down an ordinary street without worrying about fans and lunatics being intrusive and demanding of their attention with a warp perception of who they are.
> I agree with yo- he is like a childÖand children can have the best of intentions but lack the self awareness and wisdom(not to mention responsibility), that it takes to raise another human being well. Surely that is obvious despite the seemingly mafia-esque loyalty to 4ís.
FP: Well, you may have a point there.
> I feel that this is a ridiculous conversation, Elizabeth Taylor etc...are we supposed to wallow in our collective pain going on about how much 4s suffer and how much empathy we have as 4's or work at redemption, transformation and evolution?
FP: I came to realized from reading your post and Karen's posts that Elizebeth Taylor needs to show Micheal real love by stop enabling him, just so she can feel needed and important. How can he grow if she won't teach him how to be responsible, wise, introspection to become self-awared. Of course, I am speculating that she is enabling him based on what I know about their closeness, her reputation that shows she is not healthy (well, in the past, she wasn't) and her being a type 2w3.
FP: I believe in empathizing with Fours, not sympathizing or pitying them. I have enough empathy for Fours that when they come into my life, I am honest with them and would pull away from them if they overwhelm me with too much emotionalism, especially when they think I don't care about them when I appear to be emotional detached or unavailable. I try to remain objective, and I just don't want the demands and expectations forced on me, especially walking on egg shells!
> I don't think his music is particularly expressive at all. The stuff that is emotional seems to come from his stress point-2! But believe me I love "Thriller" like everybody else!
FP: Well, Riso says type Fours use their art to express their inner truths or expressing themselves, which more than likely, including their emotional pains if that is what they are feeling. His dancing is art.
> Anyway I shold stop becase I' feeling a little out of control myself right now!
FP: Oh, I am sorry. I hope you feel better. I hope everything work out for the good, including Micheal learning to be a good parent. I am going try to remember to watch the interview tonight and see what I observe for myself. It is nice to be able to correspond with a parent who takes her responsibility seriously and have transformed her life to a higher level of functioning as a Four. Do you do any of that creative artistic stuff?
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