Posted by Mike Judge (220.127.116.11) on May 16, 2003 at 14:03:36:
In Reply to: Re: J/P MBTI Observations in 5's posted by Hyperion (18.104.22.168) on May 15, 2003 at 00:47:03:
Awesome! Thanks Hyperion; a lot of useful info in there.
I can definitely see some of myself in your descriptions of J's; however, interestingly, some of the ideas actually seem reversed between myself and my P. However as I'm sure you know all of these personality systems are necessarily generalizations and specific manifestations are rather arbitrary since they develop within specific contexts. For example, she thus far seems more goal-oriented than I am (although her goals shift more than mine). Also I would say I am less outwardly traditional/conventional than she is, but again I attribute that to social milieu and experience rather than intrinsic inclination.
You wrote, "judging types tend to nag, criticize and act like control freaks"; for me I would say this is not true. *However*, internally I do experience the *desire* to pursue such activities fairly frequently, particularly within an intimate relationship. I must consciously wait for this emotion to pass, else I'm liable to engage in a dialog (or diatribe!) that will ultimately prove to be useless. I have been examining this within myself lately, and I believe it is a result of my fears: of rejection, of betrayal, of being judged. So the (desire to engage in) criticism - or interrogation - is really a sort of preemptive attack against the imagined hurt about to be enacted, or implicit in the other's behavior.
Naturally this is not a very worthwhile pursuit. However, as it seems endemic in J types, I would imagine that the opposite manifestation in P's is probably equally valueless, although I'm not sure what the opposite is? A J's criticism is to relationships as a P's ________ is to relationships? I would guess...distance? Lack of presence or awareness of the other's emotional state?
The key I guess is mutually interested and respectful communication, about and during such issues. Wish us luck!
If you've had a relationship with an INTJ I'd be curious about your personal observations and recommendations.
> I'm a male INTP 5W4.
> From a perceiver’s POV, one possible problem I observed is that judging types tend to nag, criticize and act like control freaks. P folks find J folks as stuffed shirts who take life too seriously. (and conversely J folks find P folks as spontaenous irresponsible dweebs who do not take life seriously enough) Other perceiving types might be submissive to an INTJ's intelligent and assertive demands but INTPs tend to automatically and stubbornly rebel against control and rigid measures especially demands, plans or decisions made by someone else. We need to reach a decision by ourselves first and foremost - no matter how long it takes. Of course INTJs are at least, likely to have valid logical reasons behind their plans and decisions, so the INTP might be convinced to go along. Besides, the INTJ is probably the least repetitive, pushy and least irrational among the J types and the INTP will welcome that.
> INTJs tend to think that they are always right, and rarely concede. The problem is that the equally high browed INTPs tend to think the same way. An INTP/INTJ relationship in short might become either an intense competition against one another or a stalemate of strong wills as opposed to being a complementary, complimentary and supportive relationship.
> INTJs tend to be ambitious and goal driven compared to the freewheeling INTP who tend to be less ambitious, and either no definitive goal or too many unfinished goals.
> INTJ’s self confidence which is usually paramount might be viewed by the more skeptical INTP as having insufficient foundation. The INTP detests facades and can easily see through them – fortunately the INTJ is likely to be able to back the confidence with competence and proficiency. The INTP otoh whose self confidence is more variable might be viewed by the INTJ as having low self esteem.
> INTJs are the most open-minded type, hence they also tend to conform to social norms and traditions first before they try to change or improvize upon them. They will take advantage of opportunities to be successful (er wealthy or famous). INTPs tend to be reclusive non conformists who think that they are above absurd social norms and are usually indifferent to success as defined by others because they are relatively unconcerned with the opinions or perceptions of other people. The INTJ might find the INTP too impractical, and the INTP might find the INTJ too ordinary.
> For instance, the INTJ might follow traditional means when it comes to relationships. The INTJ might reason that following what works for most couples is the logical way to approach it. INTPs otoh will usually avoid being traditional and tend to regard the relationship as one big experiment. In experimenting, the INTP might unintentionally sabotage relationships with zany behavior that is acceptable to them but offensive to typical people especially to a one-tracked mind INTJ.
> What results is degraded respect of one another which is detrimental to any relationship.
> As NT "analyst" rational types - the INTP and INTJ might have trouble expressing their feelings to one another. Both types are pretty naive and raw when it comes to emotions as it is. Both types are unlikely to cheat with or without commitment so that is a plus. Both types hate to play mind games although they would probably be extremely good at it.
> Both types fall in love quickly and easily but both types will also readily cut off a relationship if they are logically deduced to be unworkable or suboptimal. So much for till death do us apart ... till logic do us apart is more like it. :)
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